One of the issues being discussed on the forum right now is the current level of Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Harlan had seen the recent 60 Minutes report on the fighting and admitted he was now far more conflicted about it than he'd been before.
Frank Church then posted:
- Monday, February 2 2009 6:54:4
Rob, basically the Jewish settlers are saying that they will NEVER give up building settlements, never, never. They said they will fight until every arab is outside of Israel--even if they have to fight the Israeli government, which I don't see happening, because the government has supported the settlement building, based on the fact that when they get huge military aid from us, settlement building increases.
Livni was lying on 60 Minutes. She has to support settlements, in the end, because her power rests on it.
Also, Shimon Peres lied at Davos when he said that border checkpoints were not as bad as what was said. The 60 Minutes episode shows just how crazy the checkpoints are--and they have nothing to do with protecting Israel.
The scene where the Israeli soldiers wouldn't let Palestinian school kids into their own house was nuts.
And Harlan. Laid. The Smackdown. On him:
- Monday, February 2 2009 15:54:35
REPLY TO FRANK CHURCH
I was serious.
Everyone else seemed to understand when I said, "I'm being serious," that I was, as proffered, BEING SERIOUS.
Honesty made me post as I did, Frank. Against my better judgment. I had sworn an oath to myself just to let Frank Church On The Middle East Imbroglio lie, to say nothing more, because (and I'M BEING SERIOUS): it's not your implacable and obdurate position that drives me--and others--crazy, Frank, it's that you are an idiot who never knows when enough is enough, and when just to siddown and shut the fuck up. This is a character flaw you share with that bumbleheaded bellowing bag of bog-feces, Rush Limbaugh. Your intellectual kin, whom you profess to despise. No, Frank, said Harlan, exasperated:
ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS
ALWAYS do, Frank, is
go a bridge too far.
Instead of just accepting what was obviously difficult for me to set down, what was clearly the result of slow and painful rumination, arriving at a place that was jaw-droppingly and hellishly uncomfortable for me to visit...and saying something simple in the nature of, oh...thank you...instead, as you ALWAYSALWAYSALWAYS do, you had to embellish your same old hoary screed with a myriad of utter stupid paralogical fucking-annoying assumptions such as "Israel is lying when it says it's concerned about its destruction."
(NBC TONIGHT: "Good evening. Today Israeli Prime Minister Shmool Rabinowitz announced, 'I'm lying! I'm lying! Yes, yes, do you hear me, we've ALL been lying, for fifty untruthful years! I tell a lie...I WANT TO BE DESTRUCTED!! All of us have been lying. Please, ohdearsweet Hamasians, send me to the feet of Allah! Destruct the shit outta me! That's the truth! Ignore all my defensive actions, they're just misdirection so you'll destroy me and my miserable kind and the offal-stench that is Our Demonic Nation! I tell a lie! I WANT TO BE DESTRUCTED!! All of us have been lying. We took a secret Jew-Oath that if we couldn't secretly take over the world with our Secret Jew-Oath plan secretly to rule Hollywood and the money-markets, both of which are doing peachykeen, thank you, because we've secretly been manipulating everything so secretly swell...then we would Lie!LIE!LIE! about not wanting to be "shoved back into the sea," which could actually be Arabic code for "Let's embrace the nifty Israelis and let them secretly rule us via Adam Sandler movies and Hedge Funds ala Madoff" and we sure as Channukah don't want THAT to happen, for Actual Peace to reign when we could (as we indeed do) want, to be DESTRUCTED!' so get on with it, already!" Prime Minister Jewavich then swallowed a vial of hemlock and turned an improbable shade of lilac, his head imploded, and he expired right in front of our NBC TONIGHT cameras."
No one with even a soggy lima bean for what passes as a brain could rationally assert such a dopey conclusion, no matter HOW goddam up-on-the-subject he or she may be, because to KNOW such a thing about an entire nation of people and opinions would require
YOU don't read minds, IIIII don't read minds! Not even a single one, much less the massmind or mass minds or even the single individual sole one-off mind of ONE Israeli, you simpleton.
Not to mention that such a conclusion is ridiculous, illogical, simple-minded, prejudiced, ignoble, pointless, recklessly injudicious, unkind and just downright donkeydick-dumb.
But, no, you couldn't find it in your ridiculous splenetic nature to exude even one pallid scintilla of graciousness, and just let it all go till the NEXT time those slathering Zionist cocksucker Israeli murderers did something heinous. No, you HAD to go a bridge too far.
Well, even if you're on the righteous side of the problem, you are a jerkwater adolescent who cannot seem to figure out how to win the approbation of those who MIGHT agree with you, if you weren't forever poking wolverines with twigs.
You should've just shut your face, been gracious, and permitted me--as I do you--to disagree on a subject that has so many complex edges and facets not even the finest diamond-cutter in the universe could bifurcate it with skill, forget impunity!
I herewith absent myself from any response to your gibes, jibes, jerkoffs and jests. You have worn out my good graces.
My patience with you is much longer-gone.
And so you do not think that the total silence on this topic hereafter proceeding means, in any way, that your logic and cunning and knowledge and inherent righteousness have won the day, pay heed to this, schmuck:
As of yesterday, CEASE-FIRE STILL IN EFFECT, your poor weeping and wailing A-rab, towelhead, terrorist, are-getting-what-they-deserve civilians, schlepping their bloody and headless corpse-children in their arms for any Al-Jazeera camera handy ... fired TEN (10) FUCKING ROCKETS INTO ISRAEL, killing dozens of those evil kike Christ-killing Jewbastard motherfuckers who somehow were NOT filmed toting the remains of THEIR dead urchins.
Spilled entrails enough for EVERYONE, Frank lad.
You had my ear for a week there, kiddo; but you haven't got the balls to be gentlemanly. So you and I are quits on this, Church. If you want to talk about something else, well, we'll see how it goes.
2/03/09 7 a.m. edit: Frank put up a rebuttal:
- Tuesday, February 3 2009 6:39:32
Now, that's not right. I didn't mention Jews or even say Jews, I said Israel, the government of ISRAEL--I didn't say Jews. The people who agree with my side tend to be--get this--Jews! Chomsky, Finklestein, Benny Morris, Israel Shahak.
You can dislike my views, but please do not ascribe a racism I do not have.
Israel knows the entire Middle East is gunning for them--why? Because of their continued crimes in Gaza and the occupation, supported by the United States government. They end the occupation, they put the wolves at bay. I have already stated that the Hamas rocket fire is a crime, but it is tactic, albeit a bad tactic to get Israel to accept a two state solution--a real solution, not Bantustans, not checkpoints, not water rights being limited. Israel knows that the best way to avoid destruction is to play the game. Why do they risk so much? Because in the end they want the entire thing, as Golda Meir said and those settlers on 60 Minutes.
I don't read minds, but I do know that rejecting peace agreements for 35 years is an odd way to ensure security. They could have had a state years ago--why? Why did Israel vote in the Security Council to not abide by international law? Arabs see this, they know the history. The racism is on both sides, but the big guns are only on one--guns supported by my and your tax dollars. I don't want my money used to kill.
Finklestein is the one who wrote The Holocaust Industry, that makes the claim that Israel uses the Holocaust to cover up their crimes. Finklestein is not only Jewish, but his parents were both in Concentration camps. His scholarship is praised by leading Jewish academics.
We just see the world differently.
Can't that be enough?
8:30: I felt it was worth adding some more of the back-and-forth regarding Church's comments:
Boxford, Massachusetts - Tuesday, February 3 2009 7:32:55
Dear Mr. Ellison et al.:
...Some random thoughts have been beating around my head after reading the past posts, especially our dear host's vituperative reply to Mr. Church:
...Mr. Church: to repeat a prior post, Israel simply applies overwhelming force against a recognized enemy in order to guarantee its existence, a la Bismarck's "Realpolitik". Even abutting Egypt maintains a cool distance from Hamas. Morality and foreign policy have excluded each other mutually for centuries. Hamas's "raison d'etre" remains the destruction of Israel. Period. Even Fatah has conceded that point in exchange for setting up the PA. Hamas joins others as "bitter enders": Hitler, Imperial Japan, Jefferson Davis, Bonaparte, etc. Why after fifty years we still embargo Castro's Cuba.
- Tuesday, February 3 2009 8:24:0
BEFORE WE GET A PAVILION PILE-ON
Okay, second post. I'll be silent as penance, but this needs to be said: Harlan never accused Frank of being anti-Jewish.
Frank displayed bad manners in responding to Harlan's original post, but clearly misunderstood Harlan's second which chastised him for missing the point of the first.
Let's not attack Frank for a misunderstanding. Yeah, he should never have danced about after Harlan admitted to having learned something from 60 Minutes. We all learn new things, every day. Harlan's the bigger man for having said so, which isn't easy when you've got someone who presses their point as single-mindedly as does Frank. I know, I've been at the other end of his commentary a number of times.
But let's let cooler heads prevail.
Steve (Now Silent in Covina) B
- Tuesday, February 3 2009 8:49:27
Harlan, I did kind of dance on your head. Sorry about that. It was my attempt at humour, I guess.
I should have been a bit more honorable about the whole thing.
I know you don't think I hate Jews, sorry about that as well.
Sorry to the Pavilion for this unkept dustup.
I apologize deeply to my host. Knees bent, eyes misty.
Have a good day Sir.